Internal fault in drive unit

Hello,

I have been posting to this thread: http://www.mybclasselectricdrive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=359, but in case you are not following it, I have pasted what the Service Director told me:

"Our Shop Foreman, along with MBUSA Technical and Engineering Department, have concluded that there is an internal fault in the drive unit of the vehicle. We have ordered a replacement drive unit and we will install it."

This is in reference to the fact that my car goes into neutral while driving (see above thread).

Has anyone had experience with this and has this solution worked? I refuse to bring it to the shop a 3rd time.

The mods of this forum may feel free to merge the two threads if they think it is appropriate

aloizi98

aloizi98 said:

I have been posting to this thread: http://www.mybclasselectricdrive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=359, but in case you are not following it, I have pasted what the Service Director told me:

"Our Shop Foreman, along with MBUSA Technical and Engineering Department, have concluded that there is an internal fault in the drive unit of the vehicle. We have ordered a replacement drive unit and we will install it."

This is in reference to the fact that my car goes into neutral while driving (see above thread).

Has anyone had experience with this and has this solution worked? I refuse to bring it to the shop a 3rd time.

The mods of this forum may feel free to merge the two threads if they think it is appropriate

Click to expand...

That's good news aloizi. I can't say for certain, but I am guessing approximately 1% of Be owners have encountered this shift-to-neutral issue. 1% is way too high since this is potentially very dangerous. I suspect after you get a new motor you won't see the problem again. By now, this problem must be very well known to Tesla, Toyota, and MB. MB needs to do a recall like Toyota is doing. Maybe they are all dragging their feet because this is expensive to do, it's not just a firmware fix. For example, in your case, they decided to give you a new motor.

I know you have the 2014, would you mind telling us the last five digits of your VIN number? If you don't feel comfortable sharing that in public, could you PM it to me. I want to compare your VIN to my VIN. Also, what month was your car manufactured in 2014? In addition to the VIN #, it says Passenger Car ### mm/yy. What does yours say? (look for it on the driver side door frame)

What difference does it make when there is a recall when they have no fix for it! It's a nice postcard note for your reference

cossie1600 said:

What difference does it make when there is a recall when they have no fix for it! It's a nice postcard note for your reference

Click to expand...

cossie: Tell us more please. I recall you own a RAV EV. MB EV owners are not up to date with Toyota's recall regarding this matter. Can you explain to us what you mean and what you know? It's my understanding Toyota sent the recall letters to RAV EV owners so they can bring their cars in for the fix. What's happening in the field? Are they fixing it? Are you saying they don't have a fix? Then what about the letter you received from Toyota?

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1097217_toyota-rav4-ev-electric-car-recalled-for-shift-flaw-in-tesla-software

File a complaint with NHTSA to force the issue

https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/index.xhtml#

The RAV EV forum site was down most of the past 48 hours so I was not able to read it. It's up now, so I read the entire RAV EV shift-to-neutral speed sensor failure Toyota recall thread (link: http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1558 )

Here is my summary of it, for all MB EV drivers here:

*) Toyota issued a recall press release on March 11 2015
*) Phase 1 recall letters mailed to all 2500 RAV EV owners May 2015
Toyota's RAV EV recall letter in PDF: http://www2.dth.net/rav4ev/recall/20150504safetyrecall.pdf
*) The recall letter said Toyota don't yet have a fix for the problem.
*) The letter said to bring your car in if you encountered the shift to neutral problem
*) People think Toyota is waiting on Tesla for a real fix.
*) People think Toyota is purposely dragging their feet, doing the minimal possible
*) Meanwhile everyone waits
*) For those who experienced the dangerous shift-to-neutral problem, in certain cases Toyota has replaced the motor
*) However, even after the motor is replaced, some continue to experience the same problem.
*) TonyWilliams has a good understanding of the underlying issues, regarding replacing Tesla made motors, on May 29 2015 he wrote:

"It's unlikely this actually fixed the problem, which is two issues:
1) faulty speed sensor
2) software forces the main battery contactor open when it doesn't read the speed sensor
So, until the recall "campaign" is over, they are just placating us. I got a new motor, too, hopefully with a new speed sensor. But, it is highly doubtful that the sensor is some new and improved model. More likely, it's from the same parts bin that the original faulty units were from."

Regarding this matter, it's my understanding the MB EV is in the same boat as the RAV EV, with the exact same issues described by Tony above. I am not certain, but it appears the speed sensor is part of the motor assembly, or they would have just replaced the sensor instead. In another post Tony seems to imply Tesla can fix this by a firmware update, but I'm not sure why he said that. If it was that easy, why hasn't it been done already.

Then there is another dimension to this story. It's clear Toyota doesn't want to see pure electric cars succeed, they are currently pushing their fuel cell vehicles. Toyota don't care about their RAV EV owners, but that's whole new topic of its own and you can read about Toyota's motivations here:

Why did Toyota do the RAV EV, and why hydrogen after 2014:
http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=379

My motor was replaced in February 2015, not sure if that has the new one or not. My wife said she experienced the problem once, I never did when I drove it with the new motor.

In a regular car, we can look for the parts list to see if the speed sensor was changed. But I think Tesla requires the entire unit to be changed, so we can't even track it. It wouldn't surprise me if the speed sensor is bad as my cruise control acts up every now and then.

BTW are the B class serialized like the Toyota where we can track exactly what number the car is?

Don't know cossie. But on the driver door frame, in addition to the VIN #, it does say Passenger Car # & mm/yy

BRING THE CAR IN THE THIRD TIME . . .

READ THE LEMON LAW.

Once you bring the car in 3 times for the same problem without a fix you can demand that they take the car back - even in a lease you are held harmless for the junked car.

Also - complain to the leasing company - you leased a car - the implied covenant means that the car works as intended.

The question is can they verify the problem....

I just cut and pasted from my post on another string to make sure everyone is up to date.

Car still in shop.

8th day.

Drive train delivered, but only one person can put it in - "our Shop Foreman in the only one authorized by MB to work on this vehicle."

I wrote a letter to:

Mr. Stephen Cannon
President and Chief Executive Officer
Mercedes-Benz USA
P.O. Box 350
One Mercedes Drive
Montvale, NJ 07645

Mr. Peter Zieringer
President and Chief Executive Officer
Mercedes-Benz Financial Services
Client Care Center
P.O. Box 685
Roanoke, TX 76262-0685

and cc'd to:

Mr. Gareth Joyce, VP Customer Services
Mr. Andy Gillman, Regional General Manager, Northeast Region
Mr. Bart Herring, General Manager, Product Management
Mr. Harry Hynekamp, General Manager, Customer Experience
Mr. Ralph Fisher, General Manager, Customer Assistance Center
Mr. Marco DeSanto, General Council

Mercedes-Benz USA
P.O. Box 350
One Mercedes Drive Montvale, NJ 07645

and "revoked acceptance" of the vehicle. “revocation of acceptance” sounds legalistic, it stands for the simple concept that you can return a defective product for a refund. (http://lehtoslaw.com/if-you-didnt-get-w ... return-it/ I have no relation with this law firm. Simply found this on the internet.)

I asked for another vehicle - "Mercedes-Benz must replace the leased vehicle with a new traditional gas powered automobile at approximately the same MSRP of the Vehicle I leased 14 days ago - $48,950."

In the end, I just want them to do the right thing.

Will keep you posted how it goes.

aloizi98

ps. By now MBUSA has probably signed up for this forum and is following these strings. Call me paranoid, but I would do the same thing if I were in their position.

I know exactly what you mean. My B-Class has now been in the shop for 8 days and counting for the same exact thing. The shop told me it needs a new drive unit. They said the last time they needed to order one, it took over 30 days to get.

I am sending out my letter today, certified to MBUSA.

This car shut down on us twice, last time on the freeway in the fast lane in busy commute traffic. How can you trust a car like this??

Will keep you posted.

Simonb said:

I know exactly what you mean. My B-Class has now been in the shop for 8 days and counting for the same exact thing. The shop told me it needs a new drive unit. They said the last time they needed to order one, it took over 30 days to get.

I am sending out my letter today, certified to MBUSA.

This car shut down on us twice, last time on the freeway in the fast lane in busy commute traffic. How can you trust a car like this??

Will keep you posted.

Click to expand...

Where are you located Simonb? aloizi98 got his drivetrain delivered to his MB shop very quickly.

Also, when your car suddenly shifted to neutral, did your instrument cluster show anything else? any other lights or error messages?

How do you feel about your local MB tech? Does he understand what's going on?

My case was different: http://www.mybclasselectricdrive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=359&p=2906#p2906

I am located in the SF Bay Area.

Both times this happened, there were no warning lights of any kind came on until you come to a complete stop, then all of the idiot lights come on. The only thing you notice other than you are loosing forward momentum, the the charge needle goes to full regen but the car is just coasting. Once you come to a stop and turn it off, the car will restart and drive normally.

This is what happened to mine simonb:

While driving, on any road and any speed, the vehicle goes into neutral and the Stop Switch Engine Off indicator appears. This requires me to pull over to the side of the road, place the Vehicle in park and turn off the ignition. I remove the key, replace it, and then attempt to start the Vehicle again. It may start immediately, or it may take several times turning the key from the on to off to on position before it works again. At times, when it does start, and I put it into reverse or drive from park, it may stall again. Eventually, I am able to place the Vehicle into drive and resume my journey. The Malfunction Visit Workshop display appears soon after and remains.

I was told the problem was the drivetrain and that it needed to be replaced.

Simonb:

I also sent a letter and did get a response from corporate at MBUSA. They likely received my certified letter yesterday, followed up with the dealer that sold me the car and called me today.

The case manager said that they will review the case and then get back to me perhaps even by the end of this week.

In the meantime the car is in the shop....

I have a loaner car, and it's great, but it is not the electric car I wanted. The B-Class is the right size for my needs, I drive no more than 20 miles a day AND my work has two EV Plugs (J1772) so I can charge there! Win win situation all around.

This is not what I bargained for however.

This issue needs to get rectified.

aloizi98

To help facilitate a future recall for the Tesla powered Mercedes Benz B-Class ED, make a report here if your car experienced going into neutral and loss of propulsion power while driving:

https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/index.xhtml

You can also phone the Vehicle Safety Hotline: 1-888-327-4236 / Hearing Impaired (TTY): 1-800-424-9153) for assistance. Form Approved: OMB No. 2127-0008; Expires 05/31/2018

You might mention in the report that this appears to be the same issue shared with the Tesla drivetrain in the 2012-2014 Toyota RAV4 EV "loss of speed sensor signal causes vehicle to go into neutral and lose propulsion power".

I have already filed my complaint with the NTHSA, but thank you for the reminder. After 9 days being in the shop, the dealer still cannot give me an estimate on when they will be receiving my replacement drive unit.

Summary of the problem of the tolerances on the speed sensor being greater than the software is happy with:

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM474877/RCORRD-15V143-3968.pdf

I have an update on my B-Class. Come to find out that the manager gave me the wrong information about my repairs. The drive unit was not replaced. The problem with my B-Class was with what is called a, "Front SAM" All Mercedes has these control units. They act as an electronic fuse box. MBUSA determined that there was an intermittent fault inside this control unit. The Front SAM was loosing communication with the rest of the vehicle intermittently. When the power train control unit would no longer see a signal from the Front SAM, it would shift to neutral.

The fix for this was to replace the Front SAM unit, program the new one and reprogram the power train control unit to accept the new Front SAM.

I have only driven the car about 20 miles so far, so I will wait on the final judgement to see if this corrected it.